Curse

Mordakai · Mar 23, 2006, 03:07 PM // 15:07

OK, this sounds like a colossal misunderstanding.

Even if the new Hybrid missions don't require you to defeat the other players to "win", they still effect the mission. For example, it sounds like people can kill you, and even though you apparently instantly Res, won't you still have a death penalty?

The only way that these new Hybrid missions couldn't be considered PvP if the other Players could not effect your character at all. And then, what would be the point?

That said, I myself am excited about the possibilities, and can't wait to try out this new "Hybrid" experience.

Siren · Mar 23, 2006, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimeCatalyst

Why do you continue to taunt and sling sarcasm? Again, grow up.

If you think that was taunting and sarcasm, you need to start thinking before reacting. I was asking you those questions to give you an opportunity to actually criticize the reasons. And yet you deemed it more appropriate to accuse me of insulting you, taunting you, etc., when if you had read that portion of my post more carefully, you would have realized I was doing nothing of the sort. You want to accuse me of taunting you? That's your choice. But it's a lousy choice.

Quote:

If it was still PvE, you wouldn't have to deal the competing with other players to gain control/access at all[...]PvE is what it is because there is no competition from any other players in any way, shape, or form. It's just you (and your party) versus the gameworld.[...]When you introduce competition in an attempt to mix the 2 together, you transform the PvE system into a PvP system. Nothing gets mixed because you lose the composition that makes PvE what it is. And to clarify, just because there are NPCs in the game, it does not solely mean that PvE is preserved.

The PvE composition being what? Forming PUGs and fighting the computer. There is nothing more than that.

In PvE, you barely need to explore anything anymore. There's no use for Port Sledge and Marhan's Grotto, because Ember Light Camp has all the skills for sale. That's two "hidden" outposts that just became completely useless and might as well not even be there anymore. Or what about Ice Tooth Cave? Before Dakk sold every skill in the game, there were skills there you couldn't find in most places. How many people know about Maguuma Stade? Or better yet, how was Maguuma Stade ever useful?

In PvE, you barely need build design. You can load up on hard-hitting skills and spells and that's pretty much fine. The monsters don't know about Bonding, they don't know about Protective Spirit. They know absolutely nothing about damage mitigation--or at least they know what could be considered absolutely nothing.

I could go on, you know. The "composition" of PvE is nothing more than grabbing a few people and hitting Enter Mission. Then you fight the computer. That's it.

And you say that there's no PvE element like that in these new Factions missions? That it's now all PvP? Don't be so asinine and short-sighted.

None of us here is saying that it's still "pure PvE," just like we're not saying it's "pure PvP." It's a combination of the two. You can argue semantics all you want, try to weasel your way out of the definition of hybrid, but as it stands, these missions are PvPvE hybrids, because if it were "pure PvP," there wouldn't be an NPC team to kill; you'd be facing a human team a la HoH. And as it stands now, you're facing a team of NPCs. You're facing the environment. The other human team is almost completely incidental.

Things aren't black and white here. Try seeing the gray area.

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Do I think this is valid criticism for what they claim their system is? Of course! I couldn't be more verbose about it!

You're seeing things in complete black and white. You still have no valid criticism because of that as far as I'm concerned.

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Am I trying to prove it's all advertising hype? Not at all. Hoever, I do understand that companies need to promote their products. So, if dropping buzzwords gets the job done, then they do it (reguardless if whether or not the buzzword is acurate).

If it were Electronic Arts, I think you'd have a stronger case. I'm not saying ANet is God or anything, or infallible, but you're reading far too much into it than is really necessary.

Quote:

Well if you want anyone to take you seriously, it would behove you to because right now your snide comments spin you off as a hot-headed, immature teenager.

Do you think I care if you're getting offended? Let's have some fun with this. What kind of guy do you think I am? Based on my tone and delivery, how old am I? I think it's wise to mention that there are some 30-year-olds on these boards who don't even spell correctly (let alone type a post that's readable), so I'd suggest you don't go thinking you've got me pegged when you reply to this.

TimeCatalyst · Mar 23, 2006, 04:13 PM // 16:13

I'm done with this. You aren't getting any of my points and you argue with new points that have already been disproven or explained by my previous posts.

Congratulations, you win, I'm out...

Siren · Mar 23, 2006, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimeCatalyst

I'm done with this. You aren't getting any of my points and you argue with new points that have already been disproven or explained by my previous posts.

Congratulations, you win, I'm out...

Your "points" are based on what we currently understand when it comes to gameplay. What we currently understand is going to be changing in Factions. You argue that these missions aren't Hybrids, because introducing any measure of competition into PvE transforms it into PvP, no questions asked. A Hybrid system cannot exist by your argument. I'm getting your points, Time.

I just happen to think they're completely simplistic and short-sighted, because not only are you basing them on an understanding that will become largely irrelevant in Factions, you're also basing your points on a black-and-white scenario. And rarely, if at all, is anything ever black-and-white. In fact, people who see things in black-and-white are usually the ones standing in the way of progress.

It's funny, actually, when someone brought up the "World is flat" idea. Back then, you had two conflicting beliefs:

1) The world is flat.

2) The world isn't flat.

I think it'd be interesting to see how that correlates to this discussion.

The "World is flat" people were afraid of change. They saw the horizon and were scared of it. The horizon was dangerous for them, a place that was their death...literally. "Go there and you'll fall off the edge of the world!"

What did the "World isn't flat" people say? They were excited about the prospect of breaking new ground, of going on an adventure that nobody else was comfortable with. These explorers saw that horizon and thought "Hey, there might be some really great stuff out there."

How could this apply to this discussion? Which side is afraid of the change? And which side is eager to try it? Which side believes these changes will be the proverbial "edge of the world" scenario, versus which side believes these changes won't throw people into an eternal abyss?

Which side is the black-and-white scenario in the "World is flat" dichotomy? Which side is the tragically limited point of view?

Cirian · Mar 23, 2006, 05:13 PM // 17:13

To answer the OP, I'd say this was PvP and PvP characters would be usable.

I'm an ex-DAoC player and the "competaive missions" sound JUST like the DAoC frontier zones, which were PvP zones with a lot of PvE style content. The PvE content is just filler to make the zone feel right - it's atmospheric, but don't be fooled - it's all a pretext to fighting enemy players. The bigger the PvP arena, the more of this PvE style filler you need to add - it's all cool though, I still remember DAoC relic raids fondly with 200-a-side and lots of chug and the occasional server crash from the overload

denshuu · Mar 23, 2006, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

For example, it sounds like people can kill you, and even though you apparently instantly Res, won't you still have a death penalty?

Nope. No death penalty.

dreamhunk · Mar 23, 2006, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

Its called fear of change torquemada. Anet is doing something new (again) and people are afraid it will translate into more things that hardcore PvE or PvP players don't want to do. Truth is, it probably will. Since there will be an ever increaing amount of content, there must (through simple logical reasoning) be more things that type A people don't enjoy. Notice please, that I did not say there will be fewer things for them to enjoy. I said there will be more content that is not catered specifically to them.

If they don't guarantee that now, why would you ever have come to expect that in the future? Did everyone in PvE think that Anet was going to "come to its senses" and realise that PvEers are the driving force behind their game? The simple fact is that you are one group amoung many.

Its not "all for some and none for you". Its "something for everyone to enjoy". yes, that also means "theres some things you won't like" but they haven't abandoned PvEers here. I don't know how many times its been said but:
there will be PvE quests in GWF
there will be PvE missions in GWF
there will be a continuation fo the story mode in GWF
there will be mre items (and by proxy item farms) in GWF

Anet heard your cries for added content a long time ago. Thats why they've added content (not one but now 2 green farming locations with replayable quests as well) into GWP. Why would a company that wants you to dish out 50$ every six months start skimping on what they know you enjoy? It's like McDonalds suddenly deciding that everyone would rather have soft frozen yogurt rather than frenchfires, so they stop selling the 'tato sticks!

I have no problem on Anet does, I have a problem when Anet says there will be rpg when really it doesnot.

mqstout · Mar 23, 2006, 05:57 PM // 17:57

From GW Updates page:

Quote:

A variety of quests and missions will allow you to gain faction with the Luxons or the Kurzicks. These include Competitive Missions, which allow two randomteams of eight to square off in a strategic battle.

Sigh. Not only is it PvP. It's RANDOM team PvP. And yet they're calling it PvE content.

mqstout · Mar 23, 2006, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

In PvE, you barely need build design. You can load up on hard-hitting skills and spells and that's pretty much fine. The monsters don't know about Bonding, they don't know about Protective Spirit. They know absolutely nothing about damage mitigation--or at least they know what could be considered absolutely nothing.

I could go on, you know. The "composition" of PvE is nothing more than grabbing a few people and hitting Enter Mission. Then you fight the computer. That's it.

So you find nothing in PvE, no fun there. Sorry, but we do. Please keep your personal insults to yourself.

EternalTempest · Mar 23, 2006, 06:24 PM // 18:24

In C1 we had PvP and PvE (and the conflict between the "exclusive" to one yelling at the other.

Expanding styles to play:
PvP - In Various Forms
PvPvE - Hybrid (Quest/PvP system).
PvE - Quests/Mission

From design stand point, this is great, Anet i expanding (additional things) beyond what we have now (and not removing current modes of play)

Now for those that only play PvE or PvP and poke at the "other side" this is going to add much fuel to the fire.

PvE and PvP "only" players are worried about what "content" this hybrid get access to and from that.... more fuel to the fire.

It makes sense I only do X style, there this new one, it contains elements of what I don't like or prefer, "I have to change to fit a new style" and what rewards you are missing by not doing can be found at the root.

Mordakai · Mar 23, 2006, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by denshuu

Nope. No death penalty.

OK, let me see if I have this correct:

The "PvP" part of these competitive missions absolutely does nothing to effect whether you finish the quest or not?

The "PvP" part is just for faction points?

So, I could say "LFG who doesn't care about Factions, just wants to do mission" and all would be fine, correct?
(In essence, letting the other group "win", and going and doing the mission at our own pace, ignoring them whenever we interact?)

This is sounding less and less like PvP to me...

Desbreko · Mar 23, 2006, 07:44 PM // 19:44

If you want to get technical with definitions, the current PvP in GW is actually a hybrid. How? You're forced to work around the arena maps, i.e. environments. One of the most basic things in the game is positioning and that is entirely due to the environment. Any time you step in lava in the Crag, you're fighting the environment; any time someone ducks behind a wall to dodge your arrows, you're fighting the environment; any time you're body blocked in a choke point, you're fighting the environment. A purely player vs. player game type would not involve positioning or movement in any way, because that introduces an environment outside of the players' control which affects competition.

As well, PvE is also a hybrid in the most technical sense because there are ways to compete. I'm sure everyone is familiar with griefing. Well, what do you think is happening when that rogue tank grabs three mobs and drags them over to the rest of the party with the intent of getting them killed? The tank and the rest of the party are competing with each other; the tank to kill the others, and the others to resist the tank's efforts. Or it could even be a simpler competition to see who could do the most damage in a given amount of time or something like that. In order to create a purely PvE game type you would have to remove all interaction with other players or else the possibility for competition arises. Though this one is actually possible in GW since you can solo or party with henchies.

Siren · Mar 23, 2006, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by mqstout

So you find nothing in PvE, no fun there. Sorry, but we do. Please keep your personal insults to yourself.

Like I said previously, whether it was a different thread or this one, there's a difference between the truth and an insult. What I've been saying about PvE is the truth. If I wanted to insult PvErs, I'd be insulting myself, and believe me, if I wanted to insult PvErs, you'd know it.

What I'm saying about PvE is only insulting to those who have no capacity to understand logic or the truth.

It's like Dr. McCoy always getting pissed at Spock in the old Star Trek series. Spock is never saying anything all that inflammatory, yet Bones acts like Spock just burned his mother, his father, his family dog, his cousins, and trashed his skills as a doctor, when in fact all Spock was saying was that Bones wasn't acting rationally.

When will people stop acting like Dr. McCoy?

dreamhunk · Mar 23, 2006, 11:04 PM // 23:04

"here are several potential Alliance Battle maps. Map layouts vary, but all the maps have the same goal: be the first side to reach 500 points. Points are gained by controlling strategic locations on the map and by killing enemies. Only one map is active at a time, depending on where the current battle lines are located. As the battle shifts deeper into Luxon or Kurzick territory, the Alliance Battles are biased to favor the losing side."

This looks like pvp to me, this will kill all the other classies in the game. I am sure that one class or cookie cutter builds will take over maybe leave no room for classies to worked out or tryed. I may be wrong it is too soon to tell.

This looks like pvp to me. Does anyone see another Iway affecting pve. ( not rpg). I predict there will be alot of pve players upset. I maybe wrong but time will tell.

Now picture being locked out and not getting the best weapons on top of that! You can farm to your new armor you want. There will be no place for you to explore for fun. I think every thing will be fast paced. I think there will be more fight between people.I just a guess so I would know.

I think everything that is RPG is out the door or alot less of it is. LOL

rpg terms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive...e-Playing_Game
pve terms
http://internetgames.about.com/od/glossary/g/pve.htm
pvp terms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_player

more terms on pvp
http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/PvP
more terms on rpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game

now ask you self where does GW fit in these terms! Would you say that guild wars is an RPG? Would say fractions is an RPG?

=HT=Ingram · Mar 24, 2006, 01:37 AM // 01:37

I've said it before and I'll say it again, The PvP Purist's like their little bubble the way it is, and now are complaining that Anet wants to expand the gaming world to allow more PvE opportunities in on PvPs territory. Basically Gang logic... IE: "This is my territory We marked it, and you dared step where I pissed, now we kill you. "

I doubt these people will leave the battle isle anyways. so much the better for the rest of us.

Siren · Mar 24, 2006, 01:58 AM // 01:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by =HT=Ingram

The PvP Purist's like their little bubble the way it is, and now are complaining that Anet wants to expand the gaming world to allow more PvE opportunities in on PvPs territory.

Have you even read this thread? It's the complete opposite of what you're saying it is.